This Is Perimenopause

Navigating Menopocalypse and Coming Out Stronger with Amanda Thebe

• Bespoke Productions Hub • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Feel like your body's betraying you these days? Feeling lost, confused, and unsure of what the hell’s going on? Then this is the episode for you.

Join us for a candid, no-holds-barred conversation with Amanda Thebe, author of Menopocalypse and a force to be reckoned with in the world of menopause education.  Amanda shares her personal journey from fitness expert to menopause advocate and why she's on a mission to change the conversation around this natural life stage.

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Amanda:

You know, first of all, women may be embarrassed talking about this and it's maybe too personal for the workplace, especially in front of their male colleagues. Secondly, it may be really difficult to get the buy-in from the C-suite, especially if they're women. Women at the top leadership roles may not want to be vulnerable or talk about this, and I went into that going. How can I go into this and empower women with information and guidance without diminishing anything that they've achieved?

Mikelle:

Welcome to. This is Perimenopause, the podcast where we delve into the transformative journey of perimenopause and beyond. I'm one of your hosts, Michele.

Michelle:

And I'm your other host, Michelle, and we know firsthand how confusing, overwhelming and downright lonely this phase of life can be.

Mikelle:

Join us as we share real-life stories and expert advice to help you navigate this journey and advocate for your best health.

Michelle:

We used to think menopause signaled an end, but really it's just the beginning. I am so excited about today's podcast. I can't even begin to explain, because when I first realized that all the chaos, madness and confusion I've been feeling for years might be perimenopause, the first book I picked up was Menopocalypse by Amanda Thieb. This book gave me some really great information, a few good laughs and, most importantly, it gave me hope. And so to have on today the one, the only Amanda Thieb is like super exciting, very surreal for me. Amanda Thieb is a true force of nature in women's health education. She's the author of the bestselling book Metapocalypse and boasts nearly 30 years experience in the fitness industry. She's been featured on Oprah Shape and Prevention Prevention and is the co-founder of Naya Health. Whether you're just starting to notice changes or you're deep in your menopause journey, this episode is packed with practical advice, laughter and, most importantly, hope. Amanda, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you today.

Amanda:

Thank you, Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here and it seems to be going really well. Your podcast, ladies.

Michelle:

Oh, thank you, it's coming. We're aspiring to get to. Just the name of yours just popped out of my head. I was just looking at it too Mine is called.

Amanda:

With All Due Respect, I haven't recorded it in about a year and a half. I needed a break. You all know yourself that doing a podcast is a lot of work and, um, something had to give. But the with all due respect was a little bit of a you know, flicking the bird to everyone love it. It's sort of how the British say you know, you know, go go f yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With all due respect, love it.

Michelle:

Oh is that? Oh, I just thought it was very clever. It's amazing. I love it. It's a great podcast as well. You have to come back to it. Will you come back?

Amanda:

to it yes, just not now. Yeah, I'm sort of like my own boss I do what I want, basically, so I might start it again next year. Oh, I love it.

Michelle:

For all of our listeners who are just meeting you for the first time. The bit of a backstory here is that I was suffering through perimenopause and not really sure what was going on. I started to kind of figure out that maybe it was perimenopause and everything that I was coming across was a little bit bleak. And then I happened upon your book Menopocalypse and it was amazing and it changed my perimenopause journey from there on and it was funny, it was educational, there was so much great information in there and it was just inspiring and made me feel hopeful about what was ahead of me. So thank you for doing that. It was amazing.

Amanda:

I felt the same way. It's actually why I wrote the book, michelle, because I think when I was talking about it that it was a quieter conversation. People were having it, but not like it's having its moment. It's the moment, and so maybe like 10 years ago when I first started talking about it, I was trying to find information and actually most of the information I was looking at was a bit alternative.

Amanda:

It was very hard to find real, factual information, and when I did, it came from the medical societies and they use medical terms that are a little bit derogatory, sometimes are not very human, and I didn't like that either. Sometimes it was overcomplicated and then I was just finding, in general, the conversation was exhausting and it was miserable and I was like is this? It Is this how it's always going to be? There's got to be more to the story than this, and so, yeah, so it was a bit of a personal experience, a deep dive into the literature that's out there, and then just really reaching out to the experts and saying you know, let's have an honest conversation, what's happening, and then, of course, a little bit of humor, because I think that's how we learn best. You know, I think it's fun to have some anecdotal stories and a little bit of humor.

Michelle:

It was hysterical and also, but your story is really not so funny the way it started. Do you want to share that with our listeners as well, how you came to be?

Amanda:

wasn't on my bingo card was it To be like a menopause advocate. I don't really know what my title is, but I suppose like an advocate, educator type thing.

Mikelle:

At a minimum.

Amanda:

I think that's understanding it, but at a minimum, yeah, thank you, but from a non-medical perspective and I think it's really important to say that, because I don't pretend to be- a doctor and others out there do, and it drives me nuts.

Amanda:

But that's the whole of the conversation. But I think you know I came at this because I already sort of had a presence in the health and fitness world, doing personal training for decades now, absolutely decades and feeling like I was like a good advocate for women, because at the time it was like when you're 40 you might as well be dead. You know, like I mean we've all heard it like when we were 30 we were supposed to be almost dead and then, 40.

Amanda:

So when I was going into my 40s, fit and healthy, I felt like I was like a good example of like don't listen to those messages. You've got more to give and there's so much in your control. And all of that was true until it wasn't for me. And then I was like, oh God, I'm such a fraud because at the age of 42, I just started to I don't even know how to describe it I just started to crumble, I couldn't function, I was faking it really, and I was swamped with symptoms that the doctors were desperately trying to help me with. I was here in Canada and every single person I spoke to over a two year period saw me and heard me and was like, oh my goodness, you don't seem well and we really want to help you, but we've no idea what's going on. And so, even when women aren't getting heard, you know we're potentially seeing doctors that don't have education, which we know is true.

Amanda:

Two years into this journey of feeling dreadful, I saw a gynecologist who told me you're in perimenopause and I was like, well, that's perimenopause? I've never heard of that and it was. Initially I felt relief because most of my symptoms were neurological. Depression and migraines were absolutely crippling for me chronic fatigue, all of those type of symptoms and I was like phew, I don't have a brain tumor. And then just completely pissed off that I felt like I had a good handle on human physiology. Pissed off that I felt like I had a good handle on human physiology, this part of my life had completely escaped me. And then I sort of sat back and thought, well, if it's happening to me, I'm assuming it's going to happen to other people.

Amanda:

Maybe you even don't have like my level of education or like expertise type thing. And so then I started writing about it just from a pissed off standpoint, going this isn't't right, no one told us this, blah, blah, blah and and it sort of garnered quite a lot of interest. So I started a Facebook group called menopausing so hard and like, thousands of women came over. Oh, I'm.

Michelle:

I didn't know that was you.

Amanda:

I'm sort of like silent in there because after a while I was like I can't even be in here because it's exhausting listening to my story on repeat because everyone's got a story right. And it was. I was like I can't even be in here because it's exhausting listening to my story on repeat because everyone's got a story right. And I was starting to take it on personally and it just was hard hearing all about these women really struggling. So I started that group a few years ago and it's sort of quite active and there's still people running it for me. And then just talking about it out loud, like saying menopause out loud, see it saying dry vagina on CVC and things like that, and I was like, oh well, there you go, I've done it. Now what's the worst thing can happen? My husband coming home from work and said apparently you said vagina on the radio today.

Michelle:

Amanda, amanda, really quickly. Our goal is to have Ryan Reynolds say I'm not afraid to say vulva. So, ryan, if you're listening, blake someone. That's our goal Make vulvas great, normalize it. Yeah, yeah, anyway, sorry, continue. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Amanda:

And then I just really started like I followed a few doctors that have come and go in my life in all honestly, because, honestly sorry, because I've watched doctors really be advocates for women and then really start to bring it to a bias, to suit almost a business need and lose their almost like ethical nature and be like hormones for everyone and you know, like, almost like, and this is all of the wonderful things it can do instead of sticking with the science, which is what I really like. And so, anyway, I ended up writing the book Manapocalypse, and it was mainly because I moved to Texas for four years and I didn't want to restart my personal training business. I just thought I don't want to do that, knowing it's a temporary move. So I started writing the book and nobody was remotely interested in picking it up. There wasn't a single publisher. That was like this is good.

Mikelle:

Shocking.

Amanda:

I know because it was menopause and it was like, yeah, whatever, it's so boring. And then I decided I wasn't going to self-publish. I was like, fine, I just won't do anything with it. I wrote the book and I feel proud of it and then an independent publisher in Vancouver picked me up and they said we think there's a market for this, but do you want to come and speak to us? And I was like I can sell calls to Newcastle. Literally put me in front of it. And by the end of it the CEO of the company was like if we don't publish this book, then millions of women are going to yeah, that's amazing, amazing, a force to be reckoned with and then everything's just evolved from there.

Amanda:

I feel like I'm a reasonable voice in the menopause conversation. I feel like there's extremes on both sides. Shall I be all natural? Shall I be like? All women should have hormone therapy? And I sit firmly in the middle where I go. Well, it depends, right, it depends on every single individual woman. And let's also not forget that menopause doesn't define us. It's not the end. There's plenty to look forward to, it does get better and there's much in your control. And they're the type of messages I try and put out there, because, as a 54-year-old woman 53, I'm 54 next month I just aged myself. As a 53 year old woman now who's been post-menopause for five years, I'm not in the place I was previously, and previously I didn't think my life would get better, and this is something I hear resonated, and I've been talking about this for such a long time that I see women going through perimenopause and coming out the other side also saying please don't give up hope. And I try to be a good example of that.

Mikelle:

You definitely are. Thank you, shining. Shining example. Amanda, could we delve a little deeper? I think this would be really important for our listeners if you're willing to share how you overcame or managed your symptoms, because you had some pretty severe symptoms that went on for quite some time and I know you tried a lot of things, especially given the landscape today with the polarity of no, it's this way Everybody should be on hormones, or everybody should be doing it, naturally. Can you tell us about what didn't work for you and what ultimately did?

Amanda:

So I had really good advice, like I said, from the Canadian health care. I was just really lucky. Every single doctor wanted to help him, even if they couldn't, and then, when I eventually saw the gynecologist.

Amanda:

He's this old guy who's like seen it all before and he's like this is what you're going through. And he diagnosed, after some time, depression, migraines with aura, like a vestibular migraine. I had them almost chronically, like I had maybe six days a month where I didn't have a migraine or the aura oh my gosh it was. It was debilitating for me, and chronic fatigue as well, which a lot of women deal with. And then I started having incontinence and that was out of the blue. I don't know where that came from. So, yeah, hands up, if you've had that. Hands up, yeah, and feet. And so he was really proactive and he said you don't need to suffer, I can help you.

Amanda:

So the first line treatment I can offer you is hormone therapy and I, 10 years ago, went. I don't think so. Do you try to give me cancer? No, so anyway. No, actually. No, that's not true, and I can reassure you if you want. And me, being me, went. I don't think so. You think you know everything, but you're not going to tell me anything. My mom used to call me a clever shite in it and I think I just I didn't want that should be the title of this episode.

Michelle:

Just a clever shite.

Amanda:

Amanda's a cab is it's literally word shit with an e on it and and and and I think I remember my mom going through menopause and the headlines going you can't go on this mom, I really don't want you to. And so I chose to go. And then the second line. He said well, I can give you some non-hormonal medication and their antidepressants that can help you with your migraines and the depression, and they should make a difference. And so I initially went on an and they should make a difference. And so I initially went on an antidepressant, very low dose, and it was enough and I started to feel almost back to normal.

Amanda:

I was still really, really tired all the time and anyone listening to this who's had chronic fatigue knows it right. It's almost like bone deep. It's like you can't sleep it off, you can't nap it off. Oh, it's the worst, it's the worst. Can't sleep it off, you can't nap it off. Oh, it's the worst, it's the worst and anyway. So, um, and then moved to Texas and I'm continuing taking the antidepressants, but I'm not telling anybody about it because I'm ashamed I'm almost embarrassed that I've got depression when I've never had it in my life before and it was my oldest son, who has mental health issues, that just said how can you tell me to advocate for myself when you're doing the exact opposite? So that was a lesson learned.

Amanda:

So I then started having been a bit more frank about my treatment. I then started to have other symptoms that really started impacting me not hot flashes or anything, but more things like insomnia and broken sleep. And so I went to a doctor in Texas to ask if I could try hormone therapy, and he was very open to it. Well, after it was the second doctor the first one wasn't so much, but I went to another doctor. He was very open about it and I was on it for two weeks and I was like, oh my God, those things have gone. I feel great.

Amanda:

And then I just started to just nosedive and I started to get my migraines back. With that were much worse. Feel great. And then I just started to just nosedive and I started to get my migraines back with that were much worse than before and my depression just sunk me down and I wasn't taking the antidepressants anymore and it just felt terrible. And he I went back and he was like it's okay, there's lots of different preparations and administrative routes like you could take it oral, you can take it transdermally, and we went through everything and literally over a four-year period I tried everything that was on the market and initially I felt good and then I just nosedived again and to the point where at one point they had me on such a chronic dose of progesterone because progesterone probably was the thing that was worse for me, really, really high dose of progesterone that I was driving the car and I was like I just want to just drive into that wall.

Amanda:

I just couldn't, yeah, face being in my body anymore. And my husband was like every time you get like this, it's always the medication. I'm like, no, it's not, because this is what everyone tells you you need to be on, this is the treatment. And he went. Well, look, this isn't a way, any way, to live. And every time I came off, about three or four weeks later I'd start to feel back to where I was. In the end, I just came off everything. I just thought I'm just going to do a clean sheet.

Amanda:

And what happened is I ended up going on an antidepressant for some of the time, but by this stage I'd already gone through menopause and I was, two or three years out, the other side and things were starting to get better. And I think that that was something I didn't expect. I think when I was going through all of these five or six years of having a terrible time finding a treatment option, I just kept thinking well, is this going to be my life for the rest of my life? Is this how it's always going to be? Because nobody was telling us that things get better and when I started digging statistically, it does Most women. Their body starts to readjust in that three or five year window after. And I am and I have, and it's just such such a relief and I'm dying to share that with women.

Amanda:

But the um on retrospect now, I clearly had hormone sensitivity. I've spoken to experts since then and they were like saying you know, not everybody does well on hormones. Even when we adjust the dose, it can be um, really, it can really make the symptoms worse, especially if you have a sensitivity. So, so, yeah, so the not being able to take hormone therapy sorry, really, it can really make the symptoms worse, especially if you have a sensitivity. So, so, yeah, so the not being able to take hormone therapy sorry, just to finish was a surprise to me and I thought that was another thing I'd failed at, because, you know, it feels like a constant set of failures. And then when I spoke about this on Instagram and I did a series of posts, it just went almost viral because it was like that's me, that's me and I'm like well, I wonder whether people are afraid to speak up and say well, it doesn't always work, because they're frightened to get jumped upon, because that's what happens in social media, right.

Michelle:

Can I ask you, amanda, because it's true that HRT MHT is not for everyone, and yet you, there's so many people out there touting it as the end-all and be-all solution. So what do those women that do have the sensitivity, that can't take it or have to choose, that that's not the route that they want to take? What are their options?

Amanda:

And I won't speak to that sort of like as a medical provider, of course, but you know it's interesting, michelle, because when you really look deep into it, there are definite contraindications to menopause, hormone therapy, mht. There's some women that will never be indicated to have it. That might be a smallish number, but they do exist and that's what the menopause guidelines state. There's women that, like me, try it and it doesn't work. It doesn't feel good for them. And there's women that choose just never to take it, and it's the ones that can't take it or choose not to take it. They're hearing this message but if you don't take it, you're doomed for disease and all of these things that are gonna like if you don't have estrogen in your body to protect you.

Amanda:

And and the truth of the matter is, the body is adaptable and the body has mechanisms to be able to deal with not having estrogen. I estrogenamine, and we know that right, because women live till they're 83 is the age and and you know we're not all shriveled up in a nursing home, which is what some doctors are saying, like I don't want to live this broken life and and it's it's pretty disingenuous to talk like that, although you know some women will end up like frail and in a nursing home, but it's just not appropriate to talk about that just based on menopause hormone therapy. I think that that's just cherry picking information, but for those women that do can't take it for whatever reason, even though it is first line recommendation for hot flashes and the genital urinary symptoms of menopause and bone health. For premature menopause, you can take some non-hormonal pharmaceuticals, but then there's things like antidepressants, anti-seizure medication that have off-level benefits, that are helped with some of the menopause symptoms and so and they can be used successfully, right and so what you, I would recommend to any woman listening to this and I know you're primarily in Canada, but there's obviously North America too and maybe some Brits are listening.

Amanda:

It doesn't matter really where you are, because the International Menopause Society sort of feeds out all of the guidelines and with between all of the societies and there's prescription guidelines. So in Canada the Canadian Menopause Society has a consumer section and in there are the current medications available, and so you should be able to go there, print them off, take them to your doctor and have a conversation and say what's going to work for me. Hopefully they'll listen to you.

Michelle:

I love that. That's a great suggestion. Thank you.

Mikelle:

Your work has been fantastic and you've done so many different things. Currently, you're quite focused on menopause, inclusive workplaces. How did that come about and why is that important?

Amanda:

So what happened is, obviously, I wrote the book and was doing tons of podcasts and just promotions and I sort of spread it out. I didn't do them all at once, it was always filtered out. So it felt like I was this constant reminder in people's feeds that I was doing a podcast and I've garnered quite an interactive and loyal following. I actually think my following I really love my following, because they're not just people that are following me, they actually want to talk about things and they're engaged and I really like it. And the first couple of talks I did were in Newfoundland for the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife, for the federal government, and it was literally because one of my followers, who is now a good friend of mine, was like would you be interested in coming to speak to the wellness department? Because most government agencies have a wellness department, a lot of female led wellness groups as well. And I did a virtual. It was virtual because there's people like on rigs, in the middle of the ocean, on ships and in Labrador, so it was really interesting. And then I did it for Scotland Police because somebody I knew worked for Scotland Police and she was one of the sergeants there and she was running the wellness group, and so it just started like that and I just started just talking about simply like what menopause is, 101. And I talk, and I'm very clear, like what menopause is one-on-one. And I talk and I'm very clear, this is what the guidelines state, this is not my opinion. And then I talk about some of the symptoms and the treatment options. And then I talk to them about what workplace impact menopause can have, especially being untreated. And because of the fantastic work of the Menopause Foundation of Canada and I'm sure you ladies are well aware of Janet and Trish, I use a lot of their work and obviously credit them. And just to put a financial number on the impact of not having workplace policies or workplace awareness for menopause it's costing companies money and that gets people's ears pricked up, and so, anyway, I just started doing those, and then it was word of mouth, word of mouth, and I've done tons now and I've been doing them for the United Nations, for UNESCO, I've been doing them for some of the indigenous population.

Amanda:

I've really had a ball with it right, and so it's ranged from non-for-profit all the way up to big corporate businesses, and I'm just going with the flow, like I literally have no business plan. I just am like what shall I do next? But no, seriously, I just honestly put it under the umbrella of advocacy, because if somebody wants me to talk about it, then I will, and I think that it's successful. And I think it's working because when I go in solution driven, I'm a coach, right? So most you know what this is I'm talking about, right?

Amanda:

You don't just want to go facts, facts, facts. You want to just thought, you want to say and then what can I do about it, what do I take away from this? And so, whether that's lifestyle interventions which I do focus on a lot because that's things that women can control whether it's allyship within the workplace, like getting the guys on board about this, like talking about it being uncomfortable, creating resources in the workplace, creating, you know, just like maybe a coffee morning chat or a menopause champion, there's tons of different ways that we approach it and it's been really successful. And I typically am doing follow-up presentations with these companies as well, because women want it to be topical, it matters to them.

Mikelle:

Yeah, I think the work that Trish and Janet have done at the Menopause Foundation of Canada. I think the conservative estimate in terms of productivity loss for the Canadian economy alone is $3.5 billion a year.

Amanda:

Yeah, it's eye-watering, isn't it?

Mikelle:

It is, it is, and yet I would bet that there are still folks who are hesitant. Or we've interviewed women who said oh, I'm not ever bringing this up in the workplace because I don't need to give anybody another reason to discount me or to overlook me for a promotion. How do you help people overcome that perceived and perhaps it actually is but double-edged sword.

Amanda:

I think it's perceived, michaela, I really do, because it's sort of not the experience I've had. But I obviously went into doing these talks with the awareness that you know. First of all, women may be embarrassed talking about this and it's maybe too personal for the workplace, especially in front of their male colleagues. Secondly, it may be really difficult to get the buy-in from the c-suite, especially if they're women. Right, women at the top leadership roles may not want to be vulnerable or talk about this.

Amanda:

And I went into that going how can I go into this and empower women with um information and guidance without diminishing anything that they've achieved in the decades to see women at the top of their game? And I found it almost I haven't come across that. I've been so surprised, thankfully, and to the point where if there's ever guys in any of the talks I do and I always think they should be invited they're almost exclusively there. It's usually guys from HR. But whatever I've had the Chief Constable of Scotland on presentations, like presentations, yeah, they're always the first to ask questions. We had no idea, like what can we do to help, what's our role in this? And so you'll be really surprised about how supportive it is and when it comes to sort of like the mockery and the diminishing comments.

Amanda:

That's something I bring up as well. I talk about how that type of how sexism, ageism and menopause are intertwined and we have to make sure that we change the narrative on that. And when these guys listen to how diminishing it can be to be the butt of jokes about menopause. So far I found that they've listened. And then the last part of it is having the buy-in from the female executives and I'm talking about. They've phoned me and brought me in to do these talks. They've got up on the stage and they've said I want to tell you that menopause sucks and I have about 30 hot flashes a day and sometimes I don't remember your name and sometimes I don't remember what I'm going to talk about, and it's just the most. I don't think they truly appreciate how impactful that is for their employees, because they've just opened the door to making this a normal thing.

Michelle:

Other than coming in and having you speak at their company? How can an employer create a menopause inclusive workplace? What does that look like to you?

Amanda:

I think it's simple, and I think all of these things are always simple, but that's me. I'm very practical. What are the easy things that we can do? Well, first of all, I think that you need to let people know in your workplace that you have a dedicated menopause resource section, whether that's just a bunch of links that send you to the menopause societies, or podcasts like this, or books like mine.

Amanda:

Having a menopause go-to person, like somebody maybe in HR, who's not going to ask you personal questions, but you can go to them and say I'm struggling, bob's eating popcorn and I want to stab him in the eye with a pencil. What am I going to do? I'm not productive, and you know. Having that person say well, would it be helpful if we give you a quieter room or a cooler room, or do you want to do hybrid hours? And these are things that we know work. We know that if they're ignored, they impact productivity and absenteeism. So having somebody for a woman, a person to go to and say I need a little bit of help and it also falls under the mental health umbrella as well, as we know right and then like suggesting that they fill their own knowledge buckets by having, like maybe a wellness room with a few books in there or having guest speakers in and just constantly talking about it in their communications. Do you know that, like, you can come to us and we have resources here.

Amanda:

I mean, that's to me, the basics that you can do, and then we're talking down to, like, the more company-specific things where it might be better uniforms that are breathable, like the police force stopped women wearing polyester blouses and gave them. Oh, thank God, I know they used to wear men's uniforms, for Christ's sake, right, but I mean, now they're in. Well, some of them are in breathable shirts. Right down to policy change Right, I'm wearing breathable shirts. Right down to policy change, right down to change in healthcare, like payouts and stuff.

Amanda:

So it depends, but there's lots companies can do and, again, the Menopause Foundation of Canada have resources in there. They have guidance on how to create a blueprint. I think creating like a playbook or a blueprint is something that's harder to do for companies. Like I've had to go back. I always speak to them after my talks. I always go back and say what else can we do as a follow-up, and you don't want to lose the momentum. And so there's some basic things you can do, and then there's more complex things you can do from a policy level.

Michelle:

I love that. That's fantastic, Amanda. What has surprised you most in your work on menopause? Inclusive workplaces?

Amanda:

So the guys I think I do often get questions like what can I do? Like what happens if someone says they're rubbing a hot flash? Am I supposed to go like ignore them or like walk away? That's a good question, I know. Like, so how can guys get involved in this conversation?

Amanda:

Well, I did do a TEDx talk on this should men talk about menopause? And it came because there was a doctor on social media who was like slagging off young male trainers saying things like they're only 20 and they're men, they shouldn't be talking about this. And I'm like why shouldn't they? Why can't we create this group of allies that really are wanting to help women, right? And so in the workplace I say to guys, first of all, it's okay to be uncomfortable, it's not a straightforward conversation and so but nobody's asking you to fix them just because you're a guy and you want to fix everything. We don't need fixing. But if somebody is like coming up to you and confiding that they're not feeling great, then you can say well, did you know that?

Amanda:

The company? I went to a menopause talk and it was so great and we have resources now and we have, um, we have accommodations. You can go to a quiet room and get away from bobby and it's all gone and and all and so um, and, and then you know I've encouraged guys to like read the books and listen to the podcast and wow, what a difference that's made. I mean I've encouraged guys to like read the books and listen to the podcast and wow, what a difference that's made. I mean I've had guys reach out to me and go. I had no idea and I went home and I spoke to my wife and she's like really thankful that I'm open to listening, because how are they supposed to understand if we don't truly understand what's going on? So that's to me, one of the biggest eye-openers is how interested and supportive the allyship has been.

Michelle:

You know it's interesting. You say that Mikel and I are part of an incubator program and when we've gone to any of the career shows things with the other members, it's predominantly men and they're all fascinated by what we're talking about and, like the number of men that have said, oh my gosh, my wife could use some help, I think that this might be what's going on, you know, like it's just an eyeopening experience for them as well, because I think it was your, your husband, that, when you told him, was flushed with relief that it wasn't him.

Amanda:

And I hear that a lot, don't you, michelle? Because it's like it was actually after I went to that doctor about the gynecologist and he put a name on it, right, and I went to see him afterwards and we sat and had a coffee and he went. What did the doctor say? And he could see he was like really worried. And I went apparently I'm in perimenopause, I've got depression and I've got migraines and look whatever, I'm on an antidepressant and he went. Oh, thank god for that. I thought you were going to leave me and I went what, what are you talking about? And he went. I haven't recognized you for almost two years.

Amanda:

I don't know what's going on and I was like, oh my god, I was so in my own head and in my own misery that I just didn't even think and I realized that then that menopause like impacts us all in so many ways and impacted him. It was impacting my children and my friends, and so that's why I think it's really important to talk about it with everyone, because it doesn't just impact us.

Mikelle:

There's like this filtering down, and the minute that I started talking about it and you know relaying that information to people, it was like, oh, okay, then so, in addition to you talking about it and we're talking about it, and there are a lot of people, a lot more people talking about it than even four years ago, when you launched your book, I mean, you were, as Michelle said, a beacon of hope in a sea of nothing, and Yet we still have a long way to go. So what, in your opinion, amanda, do we need? You know what's needed to get us to a place where women can easily get the care, attention, fulsome knowledge about all of this and the solutions that are available to them. What is needed to get us to that?

Amanda:

point. Well, that's a really great question, I mean. To me, I think the difference between now and then is that a lot of women were going into perimenopause and had no idea what it was, whereas now they may be going in and this could be your Baroness Von Sketch moment where you go. Could this be menopause? Could this be perimenopause?

Mikelle:

No, I have a snowboard. It can't very much exactly.

Amanda:

That's right and but but where? That never entered my mind, because in my mind 10 years ago I was like menopause is an old lady's thing and I'm 44, so it doesn't make sense. It was one of those types, so I think that conversation has shifted. So now perimenopause is a word that we all hear, and so that's good, so women are able to maybe advocate for themselves a little bit more. So for me, improved education is always the most important thing. I mean, we should be learning about this in school. It's our responsibility to pass that message down.

Amanda:

And then access to care. And if we just wholly speak for Canada right now, it's the same all over the world. Mainly, we know that there's a lack of doctors. One in eight people don't have a GP. We know GPs don't get training in menopause. We know that only 20% of the OBGYN schools in Canada do menopause training. Then it's only for a few hours. There's a big, huge gap. And where there is specialists, there's only three menopause clinics in Canada. These are the approved clinics, not the private ones, and like, for example, in Canada, in Toronto, mount Sinai has almost a two-year wait list. Like that's not care, and so we need policy change. We need policy change so that there's mandatory training for GPs and doctors in whole. It should just be part of their training.

Amanda:

And because it's considered a life stage it is it's like, well then, you don't need help, but it hurts and we can suffer, and of course, we should be able to ask for help if we need it. And then I'm a co-founder I know we were going to talk about this of Naya Health, and that's another way for us to give access to women on a scalable level. And so what we're trying to do with Naya and we're going through a trial phase at the moment, like a telehealth access to menopause care. But I don't just mean you go online and you get a prescription, because that's not what menopause care is.

Amanda:

Menopause care is having an assessment, understanding your risk factors and your lifestyle. Menopause is complex, and so we have an hour with an assessor who is a healthcare provider that isn't a GP, a nurse practitioner or a pharmacist. And the reason that we're doing that is because we have 450,000 nurse practitioners and we have 80,000 GPs Wow. We need to ease the burden on these menopause clinics and we need to use people that can do the service. It's pretty involved and that's why it's taken a long time to do, but we just believe that women deserve the care they deserve and they're not getting it, and health care needs to be reimagined a little bit in Canada. I think.

Michelle:

Thank you for your part in reimagining. That's amazing.

Mikelle:

Well, and anything we can do to help get the word out, well, we will be wide open, open arms. We're so excited for this and it is so needed. I think that's the other issue you really touched on, and what you're trying to address with Naya Health is social media is great, but it's also created a bit of a notion that you just need to find the one thing that's going to work for you. There is no one thing that is going to help you achieve your best health in your menopausal journey. Everybody needs a toolkit, and you know we all need guidance on what that unique toolkit is for each of us.

Amanda:

Exactly. I mean, there's some bed, there's some bedrocks that we can give people. We can give them like. These are the things that you need to be focusing on. You've got your pharmaceutical options like discuss them, hormonal or non-hormonal but what's your stress management like? Are you even considering that? Because we know that changes through menopause, your estrogen is intrinsically linked with your cortisol, and if you're struggling to sort of manage your stresses or your stress bucket's too full, you actively need to be looking at ways to alleviate the chronic stress and improving your sleep and moving more and eating wholesomely right.

Amanda:

Nothing that is groundbreaking and nothing that is cracking the code. Like a lot of people say. We have science behind these things. Most people don't do most of those things. Have science behind these things. Most people don't do most of those things. That's the problem, and you have to turn up and you know this. You're not, in a way. You have to turn up and you've got to be consistent and you've got to be patient, all of the things. But we're looking at improving your overall health and that's not going to happen overnight.

Amanda:

Yeah, and it takes giving yourself, grace and compassion, which is something I think we're all pretty shitty at, if I may. So you know, I think that's where maybe the help comes in. Not just finding evidence all the time, you're more likely going to succeed. I mean, especially when you know a lot of the good coaches now are habit based coaches and understand the principles of showing up and doing all or something. And I know this from coaching myself. We'll try to do something, miss a day, eat a bag of chips or something and then go. Oh fuck it, I might as well just stop, and that's human nature. And we're trying to reprogram you and go. It's fine, you know, you didn't burn down an orphanage, you're fine.

Mikelle:

You ate a bag of chips. But if Bob keeps eating that popcorn and someone doesn't give you a fork, you might burn down an orphanage. So it's always.

Michelle:

Bob's fault. Speaking of evidence-based resources, you have been championing. Champion blah Canyon, mikkel. You've been championing, I can't even say the word Championing. Blah blah canyon, michelle. Um, you've been champion, I can't even say the word championing. Championing, okay. You've been championing a brand new show in canada, in toronto, specifically the national menopause show. Um, that's coming this fall, october 26, six, yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and what women can expect to find at the show?

Amanda:

It's an event that's been organized and it's going to be the inaugural event in the exhibition center in downtown Toronto and it's a big deal. It's not just like a couple of hundred people. We're expecting about 4,000 women and men to come along. It's a reasonably priced event like $35, which I think is great, because a lot of the events I see are in the hundreds of dollars and we want this to be accessible. We're going to have a series of speakers, myself included, covering a range of what we think are the top hits in menopause, the top things to talk about. We can't cover everything, of course, and we're not going to be up there for ages, like maybe 20-minute talks, and we're going to have small offshoots and there's going to be a chance to build like relationships with other women and there's vendors and it's going to be like a really great event. And what is going to make this special is that we have a board of advisors who are all evidence-based of doctors and you know, healthcare practitioners that really are trying to weed out any of the snake oil alternative sort of non-evidence-proved science. Well, it's not science when it's not evidence-based, but you know just the things that we see out there on social media.

Amanda:

I'm having a moment as well, Michelle. With my words, we call it our double menopause moment, but the idea is, though, for this event again, is that women come and they may have questions, and they leave there with answers to those questions. We don't want them coming and just thinking, well, that was a waste of time, I don't know what to do next. We really want them to walk away going okay, now I know what to do, Now I know where to get resources, and so, yeah, there's some really great speakers and yeah, I'm sure you'll put the link in the show as well. Absolutely, we will.

Michelle:

And we're actually going to be giving away some tickets too, to our loyal listeners, so stay tuned for those details yeah, we bought a bunch. Yeah, we want. I think it's going to be incredible, and the women that we do know that are going to that are participating already, are incredible and some of them have been on our podcast and we're really excited. So can't wait to meet you there.

Amanda:

Yeah, I think so, and this is going to be the first of many. It's going to be a national show, that's the whole point that we'll go across the country, so there'll be new speakers coming up, and so, yeah, I think it's just a really great opportunity to put menopause firmly on the map in Toronto.

Mikelle:

Yeah, Amazing what? Maybe before? Just before we wrap up, amanda, what's the one thing you want every woman to know about perimenopause?

Amanda:

So when I was in the thick of it and I'm sure you both echo this I remember waking up and looking at myself in the mirror and just seeing like a deadness in my eyes, like feeling as though I'd lost myself, like I didn't recognize myself, I didn't like myself. I just felt like my body had turned against me. And I just remember thinking is this how it's always going to be? Is this my life now? And it was.

Amanda:

I didn't help my depression, and it was then I actually needed to flick the switch because I couldn't have got much lower. I needed to, you know, turn that around. And and then it was sort of then that I started making the steps forward, thinking you know, what can I do to really thrive through this? What can I do to really sort of step forward and lean into menopause, instead of fighting everything that's happening to me? And so that's what I would just say to women like lean into it, get educated, find out the best treatment for you if it's needed, really start taking care of your health, but stop fighting the inevitable, because you're lucky to be going through it.

Michelle:

I love that. Thank you.

Mikelle:

Amanda, thank you so much for all of the work you've done, for all of your efforts to help women not go through what you did, what we did. It is so important and we know from experience that it's a lot of work and it's not always easy. So thank you for forging ahead and we look forward to all the great things to come that you're working on. Thank you.

Amanda:

Thank you so much for those kind words and I am looking forward to meeting you both and best of luck with the podcast. Thank you, thank you so much, thank you.

Michelle:

Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you like what you hear, please take a moment to rate and subscribe to our podcast. When you do this, it helps to raise our podcast profile so more women can find us and get a little better understanding of what to expect in perimenopause.

Mikelle:

We also read all the reviews the good, the bad and the ugly, to help us continuously improve our show. We would love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the podcast, on social media or through our website. Our information, as well as links and details from our conversation today, can be found in the show notes. Links and details from our conversation today can be found in the show notes. This podcast is for general information only. It's designed to educate, inspire and support you on your personal journey through perimenopause. The information and opinions on this podcast are not intended to be a substitution for primary care diagnosis or treatment. The information on this podcast does not replace professional healthcare advice. The use of the information discussed is at the sole discretion of the listener. If you are suffering from symptoms or have questions, no-transcript.

People on this episode

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Michelle Stainton

Host
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Mikelle Ethier

Host
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Amy Schlueter

Co-host